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Pls help me with this track

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:53 am
by darq
daRq - King loui ... loui_2.mp3


after djing for a few years i startet producing my own music this summer! I want to share this track and i hope to get some feedback about the style but i also need some help :p

The Rythm and the synths are ok but i have big problems producing a clear Kick/bassline.. As you can hear it sounds "muddy" ?!
For better understanding i give u information about my plugs first..
I use samples for the kick, alien for the bassline and for the rest mostly Discovery.

I ve read a lot in this forum and i use (or i try to use ;P) sidechain compression (tc native) on the bassline and xbass4000 to make it more powerfull. Im working on it for a few days now and it sounds a bit better now but its far away from perfect quality

Another problem appears when the Bassline goes on while the kicks stop. The bass always gets louder. how can i fix this? i raised the release to max but i m sure this cant be the right way -.-

So maybe you can help me improving the quality! i can also upload wav version or the project if needed.

thx darq :roll

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:51 pm
by mudpeople
So, im typing this before I listen to your track (its d/ling and ill listen when its done), but Ill share with you how I make my kick and bass as clear as they sound (check here ) I dont claim to be a genius or anything, but i think it sounds clean enough.

First off, I use some nice samples (a 303 and some Korg samps) for bass. I dont EQ (learned that from Penta in the isratrance thread 'how to make a penta bass?' or something like that) at all, and i dont use any compression. Sometimes I use a filter envelope if the bass is too sharp in the mid range. The best idea is to make each sound, the kick and the bass, sound clean and vibrant alone.

The kick should cut off before the bass note begins, if you're doing a classic k-b-b-b- bassline, otherwise you have overlapping bass frequencies. Renoise's sample editor (I use REnoise) has a function that makes a fade-out on whatever you select in the sample, i use that to cut the 'woof' of the kick off until its not interfering with the bass.

I send both the kick and hte bass to their own return, and put a 3 band EQ on it, and lower the high gain a bit. I put a low pass filter on that return, so i can do those lp filter sweeps you hear all the time. Other than that I try to keep the kick and bass notes as unprocessed as possible as far as compression and such.

*Note; if you sidechain, you dont have to worry about kick notes coinciding with bass notes, since i dont sidechain, i edit out bass notes when the kick would otherwise coincide and cause frequencies to sound bad. Somewhat of a pain in the ass, but i dont mind cuz it sounds clean.

My rule of thumb (just mine, you can do however you want) is to use as little effects and processing as possible to everything, especially the kick and bass.

im having some issues d/ling, but ill keep trying and give some more specific pointers then

One thing that may be causing the bass to sound louder when the kick isnt present is the compression, which, when the kick is present, is lowering the bass so that both kick and bass arent peaking above whatever you have the threshold set. When the bass is alone, the compressor is still keeping everything within the threshold, but since there isnt another element in the mix, it allows more of the bass.

And a note about compressors/maximizers/limiters; IMO they should always be transparent, meaning you shouldnt be able to tell the difference when they are active or not, except in cases where the frequencies are overlapping, which shouldn't sound any different than when there is nothing overlapping. But again thats my opinion.

Hope that helps, and I hope i explained things so you can understand :P

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:03 pm
by darq
thx for the answer! im will try it this way soon because your kick/bass sounds way better than mine i think...i cant listen to it with a good system right now... but i have a question ;P its a noob question i think ! what do you mean to send k and b to their own return?
maybe i should say that i usw cuebase 5

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:19 pm
by mudpeople
ok listening now....

Maybe your kick could use a little less midrange, sounds a little sharp.

I can hear how the sidechaining is working to cut out the overlap of the tail of the kick and the attack of the bass note, sounds fine.

If you shorten the kick though, enogh so it ends before the bass note begins, instead of doof bu DU DU it sounds like df DU DU DU (if that makes any sense :P :P ) Sidechaining lowers the velocity of the first bass note, is what i mean ;) If thats what you like, go for it. :D

IDK if you EQ the bass but try how it sounds wihtout an EQ, maybe that will help it sound cleaner. I hear what you mean, the muddiness. Ive had the same problem.

Hope Im not speaking Swahili and my advice isnt gibberish, and maybe it can help, but i just want to be clear that this is just how I do it, many others do it very differently. This is what works for me to make the sound i like.

Good luck, track sounds great otherwise!

Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 10:22 pm
by mudpeople
In REnoise, I put a send device on the kick track and the bass track which routes the sound to a single return track (the track the sends send to). Im not sure what Cubase calls it :P

basically it turns the 2 tracks into 1, then i can effect the send track and it effects both kick and bass

also idk about cubase's routing options but in Renoise, it gives the option to keep or mute the original. I mute original, otherwise i have kick and bass uneffected, then the send wiht both effected both playing at the same time.

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:44 am
by darq
ok now i see what you mean! I will try to usw bass samples in the next track but it would be more comfortable for me to get a better bass with alien in this track so i dont have to change everything... ;) haha the lazy guy ;)
I just tried to shorten the kicks.. it really sounds more clear but the kick also loses power in the low freqs. But im still in front of of shitty speakers :P have to try it in the lab again ;)

Ps: i had to read it twice but yeah i see what you mean with doof and df s and stuff like this :P

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:09 pm
by maartenvandijk303
here are my thoughs :drinks

For cubase make a groupchannel track and on the mixer turn the stereo out on group one on the plug you want to use
then you have one track to control the two sounds

iI also read that you use alien for bass imo its a ok plug to start with but dont use to much eq on this plug it doesnt need it because the sound isnt very rich(no eq also works fine on this plug imo)
if you read a little on the forum then are posts that make it very clear how to make a good bassline with any plug so you can step away from alien

For your bass problem you could record the bassline and then use the
wavefile on the spots where you want it to play without the kick
grtz maarten boom........... 8)

Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:45 pm
by Plasma Force
I must be soundblind because my ears tell me nothing wrong with this track Darq ;) Could i be wrong?


Posted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:33 am
by darq
thx for the answers first...

Plasma i dont really think it is totaly wrong ;) but the bassline could be much cleaner/wider damn i dont now how to say but i want it to sound different lol

im going to search the forum again and try all the suggestions you made..

i will keep you informed ;)