An absolut noob needs help!

Music creation & DJ mixing, how tos questions, discussions & help ~~~ Musical Software/hardware/skills etc...
Fraktal
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An absolut noob needs help!

Post by Fraktal » Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:11 pm

Good day to you all!

I just started with producing music (dark, psy, dubstep, dnb etc) yet my results are way more reasonable than anything else :crazyG

The short version: I am an absolut noob!

If you don't mind helping a noob you may answer my questions!

1. How do I record a song (I'm using Ableton Live)? I mean not "how to press the record button", hehe, but still! I have fun producing nice sequences and scenes. But when it comes to record a whole song I get into trouble! I have no idea with what to start, what to record first and what to insert later (like transitions, intro, breaks between the scenes).

2. Do you use a whole new set for different parts of a song, or is it more like: Okay, I am having this kick, this bass and this hihat, snare etc and I just make a new combination, make a new sequence and add it after I recorded the part before that? And only the synth is changing?

3. My head is full of ideas when it comes to synth and lead (excuse my Ableton-marred vocabulary
:D )
How do I produce a synth-lead or bass that fits nicely into the song and gives it a dynamic feeling without sounding too volitionaly?

4. What happens between the first scene you created and the finished song? How do you build it, what comes first, what comes later?


Okay, that's it for now! Any suggestions, ideas and helpful little tricks are also most welcome!

Oh, and I know that some of my questions are hard to answer in general cause somebody might do it like this and somebody like that. So please try to share what u think might be good to know for a n00b like me :D !

Thanks for all your effort, stay creative! BOOM! :drinks

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Post by kutanimal(Pleiadian) » Sun Feb 14, 2010 2:55 pm

hi bro i my self iam not a experient producer .... but i think i can leave u my toughts about this

1. cant help u eheh i dont use abelton lol

2.i think this is about ur creativity u can use difrents parts like eheh derango ! or u can stick with ur intruments and create an history

3.try to use vst instruments for leads pads ...like albino 3(rob papen) Vanguard (Refx) Zebra 2(u-he) Reaktor 5 (Native instruments) Battery 3(Native Instruments) etc...bass cronox 2 (Rob Papen) vb-1 (steinberg) Alien 303 (G-Sonique killa one eheh) etc...
then u need to learn about frequencies so u can make nice eq in ur tracks is very important this part if u know how 2 make nice eq ur sound will b alot more clear 8) use vst plug ins like waves to find nice tools for eq

4.well this is up to u also i think my way of production i try to create an history so first i kind of present the leads then i develop them till the end on the end i make and the breaks in the track is easier for me but again this is my way of u have to find ur self a kind of so u can also make something difrent in music not making what is already done :)

also add vst plug ins like glintch , live cut , camelspace ,obelisk etc... for fx

i hope i can be helpfull cuz iam also kind of a nooby in production lol

good productions :drinks :poor

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Post by Fraktal » Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:02 pm

Thanks for the fast reply.

I think you've missed the point of my first question! Cause what I wanted to know is more like: what comes first? Should I first record all the basslines eg and than add the synth or vice versa? Only an example, I know that only recording eight minutes of basslines would be a very...uhm, unusual way to record, hehe...

Thanks for no 2,

then comes 3 and 4. Okay, I've never heard about any of those. And what do you mean by "u need a nice eq"? I know about eq only from vlc-player where you can control the low, mid and high frequences! What should this eq look like respectively what is it all about? Is it a feature, another effect, where can I control it? Oh, and after googling I see what vst-instruments are but I still don't really get the whole thing about them.

And what for should I add those vst plug ins? What exactly does they do?

Well, this sure helps me in some way! I'm looking forward for moar :bravo !

Oh, and btw, I'm a sis ;)

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Post by JARJOR » Mon Feb 15, 2010 9:06 am

I´m not an expert i´m learning too but i have experience in architecture and design creative process so you never say ok first i´m gonna do the bass ,then the kick...Everything can guide you to what your product of your imagination can be.Sometimes you will be playing with some vst and you will thing this gonna serve myself to start, another time would be just a kick or percussion set so just relax and keep watching.Sometimes you will find this sound ,this structure that makes a song the thing it is, the reason because this song is this and not another one.Sorry i´m becoming some kinda mistic...hahahahaha

About intro breaks, just listen what you want!! there is no rules!!! In techno there was a count rules about count 16 or 32 beat and then song introduces changes but here we are talking about underground and psychedelic music so there is no rules....

If you use ableton i suggest this.Make an structure... a bass, a kick ,lead sound that you want,some killer samples and then begin to play it as live...Listen if you like it what you have record it preserves live fresh.Enjoy your sounds.The you can make up thing that you didn´t live.Actually nowadays ableton controllers work like this....For example this video...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EvfZYBF ... re=related

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Post by Mandari » Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:02 pm

hey mate,

im on ableton too, and as it seems you´re not that familiar with it, i should maybe tell you the basic options you got ;)

so first in ableton you can decide on your own if you want to write your track in sequences and tracks from the left to the right, like with most other daws (cubase,FLstudio,logic,etc.) OR simply create different loops,one shots (in ableton called clips). this is splitted into the basic two sections of ableton, the clipview and the arrangementview.
i use to work in arrangementview, so that i can go right on for arranging the stuff i create. but sometimes i feel more like i first need the basic stuff and putting after into arrangementview, which is just dragndrop to the desired view,so same vice versa ;) also is possible to just mark things in arrangementview and dragndrop only the marked stuff.

to the recording issue guess now, you can record after arrangeing stuff in arrangement view (and maybe export after, dont get the point why record?) or play around with the clips you created and record this (hit record and play around with the clips=D). you will see that ableton is recording the stuff you do in realtime in arrangementview. what you start to record or arrange and record after is up to you. think about other songs and their arrangement, compare and think about what they have in common (in your desired style). simple basic song structure of electronic music and trance is beginning-highlight-end, you just need to write the stuff between. so create some rising feelings in the beginning, where you´re working forward to the highlight in the middle and after this going for leaving the twisted area, let the song and the audience calm down and coming to an end. sure there are tons of possible ways to come up with really creative arrangements (just think about other music and combine the compositional things like arrangement with the sounds you made or whatever comes to your mind). maybe try this site here:

http://library.thinkquest.org/22673/forms1.html

anyways, my way to start and go for things. usually i start with kickn bass:D but this is no rule and i have to agree that different stuff can lead you to a song or the idea for one. sometimes i dont feel like going for a new song and just work on sounds and patches. during the while and with the sound i did, which can be a simple sample/one shot sound or a drumloop i.e., i get an idea for a song and start with this sound i just did right before the idea came in and work on the stuff around :D

so it´s up to you to sort your ideas and find the most charming way (at least for you) to go for things.

to the second question i guess it´s completely different from artist to artist and in my case depending on mood and my feelings for doin a song right now or not. if i dont need to hurry because otherwise will loose my basic sound ideas (i usually dont have to hurry=D) i do each song with new stuff. thing is if im not working on a track im working on sounds and patches so that i always got enough stuff to work with. all depending on the day in my case. sometimes i take kicknbass and change it after , jsut to have some baseline for my track, but usually i start from scratch each track.....

to the third question i have to say you´re just at the beginning. most of artists doin really good music, creative and inspiring to others also, are doin this for years, these learn about this stuff for life.
it took me years to get only kicknbass in a way to work with and it will take me more years to get really stunning. at the end its up to you, but you have to earn a LOT about these things, reading books, learning, watching tutorials have discussions about music etc. but can tell you where i learned most and where to learn the basic things fastest way i guess....at least where i learned most in more or less time....

http://forum.isratrance.com/forum-produ ... ic-making/

http://www.soundonsound.com/

have a look for musical theory sites, mine are german, sorry....

give this "Hands on Synthsound" dvd a try for learning basic things about synthesizers, what is a sound, how do we achieve different sounds by different synthesize techniques etc. there is also a "Hands on Ableton" version ;)

sorry i have to say it will take you some while to even learn only the basic things. and a LOT about music theories etc to get these dynamic playground stuff done. maybe simple way you could get this is having your bass on a desired note i.e. F2, nice deep saw bass. now you go putting up a leadsound hitting the bass on the same frequency just two octaves higher, so at F4 maybe. also you could change different notes according to F scale or just put a few slightly hits or whaever. it would take ages to tell you all possibilities, you have to understand the basic stuff and see and learn the possibilities resulting from this.

to 4 i can only say same like above. no rules, up to you .....

on isratrance my advice to you would be having a look for what topics there are before posting questions about any stuff.
here are the basic ones:

http://forum.isratrance.com/sticky-most ... ul-topics/

i read there for years and learned mostly every stuff there or from the dvd above, from reading and watching tutorials for years and guess there will be no end =D never. you choosed a hobby you will never come to an end...

I LOVE MUSIC FOR THIS!!! =*

ah btw, did you read here on the forum before? i guess no, or you had at least tried my tutorial about the kindzadza leadsound here on triplag.

:cs

4/4, Kbbb, going crazy around, do some changes here and there, break the shit out of it and there you go. at the end you will learn that its quite easy and f@#king hard at the same time :D

EQ btw is something one should leave at beginning, same with compressors, it will take some more time to understand these tools and working with them. in 99% of all cases i heared, working from beginning will phuk up your sound. they can destroy all work if not set right and used wise. best case is you dont need them ;) at the end these tools are subtractive tools, which take something from your sound to make it different. but you´re dealing with lack of quality and loosing dynamics, so forget about eq and compression/limiting etc for now. my advice, try around and learn about them, but also try to avoid the use of them until you really now how they work. there are tons of different eq´s out there, each with different sound and for different cases. but "basically" they all work like the one you already know ;)

to the vst instruments, ....... ............. ..................... ............

piuhhhhh, sorry :D

so, i guess you will not go for expensive hardware, having tenthousands to spend, or? so for electronic music production guess what the instrument is.......right, your PC/MAC. so if you dont go for minimoog, nordwave, neve console, completely analog studio i guess you have to become familiar with vst instruments. they´re software instruments you can use in your DAW (ableton) which emulate this hardware stuff you dont want to pay for or simply dont have the money for. so just get few and learn how they work. or just click through preset library, coming later to this point....

naahhhh, sorry. really go for learning about synthesis first and the different ways to synthesize sounds. synthesis means to recreate a sound by using different techniques (additive,subtractive,FM,etc.) to achieve the desired one. and man its already gettin kind of a novel here =D so maybe you can see it´s really lot you have to learn and many wont be able to help you if you dont know the basic things. the knowledge about this all is power, you got the ability after doin what you like, becoming a synthesis monster creating sounds no one ever heared before, just regarding to the preset & sample stuff i will come later on ... =D

last thing i only can recommend is try to learn yourself, because otherwise ppl will often, if not usually only tell you their opinion (like i did with the eq thingy i.e., which is simply true but my opinion), which has not to be true or fit your imagination of sound. keep this in mind because many people will tell you many different things.

hope this kinda helps, cheers: stephan

ahhh nearly forgot.... i dont like to say this now, but maybe you like the trial and error way or just using stuff other people created. in this case you could save a lot of time and go for samples and presets. presets are the sounds included in a vst instrument, usually you just have to press a key on your keyboard (if you dont have one, live offers qwertz/qwerty keyboard simulation, just hit the w key i.e. and sound live triggers midi note to the vst synth;)).

samples you get everywhere, dont wanna go on now about quality, sample rates to keep attention on, resolutions etc. just google psy samplepacks whatever and think you will find enough.....

so last thing i wanna say is keep in mind if you use samples or presets that they´re easily recognized by other people already knowing the sound/preset/sample.... and you will not learn this way how to create the stuff in your mind. or how to create stuff you like from others or how to develop your own ideas or other ones ideas ;) think about yourself what you want to do and what you want to achieve.

also try to get a clear idea of what you want to sound like ;)

cheers: stephan

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Post by Fraktal » Mon Feb 15, 2010 2:29 pm

Man, unbelievable. Thanks for all those helpful words. Ich komme auch aus Deutschland, Mister ;)

And yes, in the meantime I learned a bit about vst and now know some more about it, and yes, you're right in what you're saying. Luckily I know already some useful things about music cause I played instruments for years on and off now and learned about music theory at a school in Hamburg, which was based on the idea to have a musical class next to one about ancient languages. Guess which class I've taken... That's why I know something about frequences, tonality, bars and what basics a song is built from (refers to your first link! 8) ) etc, etc...

Vor allem will ich dir für deine Tipps das Aufnehmen betreffend danken. Denn du weißt ja, was mir primär Schwierigkeiten bereitet ist wie gesagt die Phase von simplen Loops oder Samples zu einem Song mit Struktur, mit Spannungsbogen und einem (wiedererkennbaren!) Thema...will heißen, ich habe ein Intro, und ich habe einen echt netten Loop mit Leadsound...und jetzt sage mir, ich solle das verbinden! Arghs, und da ist bei mir derzeit noch viel viel viel Üben angesagt...auf der Gitarre war das irgendwie so...leicht :blush
(Der Grund, warum ich das, was du ja eigentlich schon weißt, nochmal auf Deutsch wiederhole: es ist relativ kompliziert, mein Problem auf Englisch deutlich genug in Worte zu fassen. Du scheinst mich aber trotzdem super verstanden zu haben... :bravo Danke nochmal für die Links und deine Erfahrung! Wir schreiben uns wieder! Auf zu neuen Taten :ura :bangin )

Well, I feel this whole thing is getting much bigger than I thought in the beginning. I will try my best to exercise and finally being able presenting my first work I find worth it. And then I'll think back and to myself: Wow, this all really have started here.

cheers to you all. You're wonderful :drinks :kiss

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Post by Fraktal » Mon Feb 15, 2010 3:38 pm

Oh! And also Jarjor, I didn't see your post in the first time - this controller for Ableton is really cool 8)
And it gives a good basic idea on what Abletons most important functions seem to be.

Yay. I think I'll get wiser and wiser here. :cs


edit: If you wanna hear something, go on. Note the explanation below.
I don't think this would fit into self-produced tracks for obvious reason. Also, 6/8 time. :roll

http://soundcloud.com/ungestuem/first-trip-02-10

Some of the melodies me likes!

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Post by JARJOR » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:45 pm

I would like to say with all of my respect to all artists here that you have to listened but not a lot.Becouse people knows a lot , they have a lot of knowledges for veterans are watching another things, they are interesting of course but sometimes you could be feel that it´s impossible to reach some quality, it´s heavy to learn.... if you are studying medicine and in your first lesson you enter into the last year course you could be afraid and things you are going to learn with time sounds as chinese.So you get down and don´t make anything.So first it´s the energy your need of making music.And then you have to walk and walk....I´m a starter and sometimes i feel like this.For example if you go with a professional guitarrist they only like some kind of guitar with a lot of reason it costs a lot but you can sound with a worse guitar....perhaps when you learn a little bit you will notice...

Go on , it´s not bad the music you have posted.

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Post by Fraktal » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:58 pm

My dear Jarjor, I nearly don't understand a thing you were writing. Please reread your English more often to make sure it is readable ;)

But I really appreciate your last sentence :) Particularly because I just played around on this my mix.

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Post by JARJOR » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:29 pm

Sorry sometimes it´s difficult.

I gonna try to explain myself:

for learning sometimes the only thing you have to do is be mistaken by yourself...
Just look in the direction of your own energy.
Sometimes i have seen a lot of information, expert vocabulary, technnical expresions, hardware requirements, set up preferences, vst, software,midi stuff, opinions ...so i felt you are not going to be able to reach quality.I get down....i felt bad...
So get up, just begin with one thing, then you play as a child, get enjoy and with the time you will polish your mistakes...

but energy must be clean and powerful.
So sometimes you must be blind and deaf to advance hahahahahahaha
Hope this explain myself....

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Post by Fraktal » Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:42 pm

Yeah, now I get you totally.

Thanks for this. You're absolutely right indeed.

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Post by Retohmorgon » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:33 pm

:bravo You guys are so great to help Fraktal out! I think its awesome how people take the time out to share so much knowledge! Btw Fraktal, your not a NOOB! I can't stand when people use that term. Your just learning like we all are. Know one starts out being Derango!!, Unless you have God given talent which most of us don't. Even professionals are still learning new things everyday! This is an ongoing process that continues forever. Keep practicing more and more, and things will fall into place for you when it's the right time. I'll sorta quote Rawar here: be patient with your music, because you have all the time in the world to make it sound KILLER! That was one of the best tips I read on this forum! No need to rush, just enjoy the journey, the process of making crazy sounds and beats! Have fun bro! :drinks

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Post by JARJOR » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:49 pm

Sometimes when you don´t know the way you get lost and then you find another things different of the things you were looking for.....
It´s great don´t know were you are going because all things surprise you , you keep young and fresh!!!! (sometimes it´s some kinda dessperration but it´s part from the game) hhahahaa
Words have a lot of power and if you call yourself noob you are gonna be noob all time.So you are an expert sound traveller!!!!

Keep on Noising

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Post by Fraktal » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:17 pm

You are all so awesome :yahoo

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Post by Fraktal » Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:27 pm

Sorry for doublepost, but:

I'm now sessioning everyday for between an hour and many hours! I feel that the process is going on like it never did before.
I can't say when it will be ready for release. But this moment will definitely come 8) You all really took part in this.

BO0OM :D

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